S3 | E5 Jonathan Hammond

Jonathan Hammond

It sounds so impressive, uh, or scary, or scary, depending on how you think of which. Uh, uh, how did I get here? Um, I don't know. I mean, I, I, uh, Michigan. Michigan.

Matt Kosterman

okay

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah, I'm from Michigan. Uh, and was, um, was very theatrical kid and, uh, parents thought actor and I thought actor, and so that actor was, uh, uh, was a thing for many years. Um, and, uh, but also needed a lot of healing and, uh, and certainly traversing show business for, for, uh, for, um, almost two decades was, uh, was something that I just... I needed something else to call on. And then the spirituality stuff ended up taking on, uh, just more space. And, uh, I, I found that I was, I was employed in, uh, productions within Broadway and, and, uh, and I would have this scary feeling of I couldn't wait for it to be over because, uh, uh, I wanted to get back to be-being spiritual.

I wanted to get back to my spiritual life, and when you're in a production, it's sort of all-encompassing. So that was a very scary thought, having not even, uh, uh, finished paying off my student loans from drama school. And,

Matt Kosterman

Okay

Jonathan Hammond

I, uh... And then a, a series of, uh, of, of events happened that really, uh, led me to, um, decide I was gonna change my life in my late 30s and, um, uh, go into this work full time, and I've been at it for, uh, a couple decades doing this now. Uh, so yeah.

Matt Kosterman

Beautiful. So what, what were, w- couple things. The, the, the, the trauma, was this, this lifetime trauma? Stuff you brought with you from another life? Growing up was a little crazy

Jonathan Hammond

Growi- growing up was a little crazy, yeah. Um, um, yeah, growing up was a little crazy. Uh, um, it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, it wasn't specific traumas, uh, other than, uh, a sense that, um, that I was supposed to save everyone. You know, I was, I was recognized as talented, uh, you know, as a kid, and, uh, and became sort of an ego extension of, uh, of, of parents. And so my shininess and my talent was utilized, uh, i- i- to, um, make people feel better about themselves and to maybe save them, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Okay

Jonathan Hammond

Uh, and so there was, there was a lot of internal pressure about that,

Matt Kosterman

To perform.

Jonathan Hammond

yeah, to perform.

Matt Kosterman

To perform

Jonathan Hammond

and, um, you know, I, I-- extremely sensitive, extremely empathic, and, um, so, and, and, you know, the, the plight of the empath really is a plight. You know, the, the, the development of the empath to really be appropriately boundaried and understand that the empathy is a gift, and it is to be utilized and, uh, and, and, um, uh, given or spent on those that will receive it with gratitude, not just, uh, uh, not just on autopilot and all of that. So that was, um, a, a big part of my journey, was just, uh, uh, right-sizing my empathy and channeling it toward, uh, something that was actually beneficial, you know?

That I was never a fame-driven actor. I was a-- It was about stories. And, um, and what I found was that I just wasn't able to, uh, I wasn't able to move people or change the world in, in a way that was, um, that had a big enough reach for me, you know? And, uh,

Matt Kosterman

Got it

Jonathan Hammond

so that was part of it too. You know, the, the, uh, sha- shamanism and, um, uh, and theater people, th- those are ve- they're very linked. They're very linked. Uh, Neville Goddard, Neville Goddard was a, w- you know, was an actor. Uh, because if you think of, you know, you learn the lines, you learn the blocking, and you hope for inspiration to come through, you know? Uh, it's not really that much different. It's, it-- That's essentially the work that I'm doing now, you know?

I, uh, you know, so it, it's, um, uh, it's very similar. I've been, I've been channeling or feeling into characters on a page, and so now I just feel into the, the, the people that come to see me, uh, from the inside and understand what's going on with them from the inside, um, uh, to such an extent that I can, uh, help, uh, them recognize what is in there that is blocking them from, um, uh, where it is they need to be going and, uh, and what-- and fulfilling their potential.

So, uh, so the, the... I, I was always scared when I, when I started doing this work that, oh, people are gonna think you were an actor, or people are gonna think phony. And that, that, that fear didn't last long at all because I saw, oh, this is, these-- I'm utilizing many of the same skills.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah. Yeah, and what, what were, what were your degrees in? Theater?

Jonathan Hammond

Theater.

Matt Kosterman

theater at both schools, master's

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah. And then, and then, w- I mean, that was, that was, uh, undergraduate. That was in my, you know, in my, in my late teens, early 20s, and then a whole series of, um, of training certifications, uh, um, uh, uh, toward this other, toward this other- Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, spiritual counseling

Matt Kosterman

is a, is

Jonathan Hammond

I would tell you, yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the Hawaiian tradition, yeah. Yeah

Matt Kosterman

and foundation for shamanic stu- shamanic studies, master teacher in three different kinds of Reiki and, Huna, and I lo- lo- well, love to talk about Ho'oponopono 'cause that was really useful for me in my journey. and, uh, do- did some therapeutic psy- uh, psychedelic work

Jonathan Hammond

Mm-hmm.

Matt Kosterman

for your

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah.

Matt Kosterman

and for others.

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah

Matt Kosterman

yeah. and you've taught, uh, right, also in the Minoan, so Minoan Fellowship of Wicca, a Wiccan, and, um, studied with shamans on four continents, so you've, you've had a, had a, a

Jonathan Hammond

Been at it. I've been at it, Matt.

Matt Kosterman

while.

Jonathan Hammond

Been at it, yeah

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, my friend Laura likes to, to, Laura O'Malley likes to, she called me like a, a, a, the dog from Up 'cause I'm like, "Squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel," with each new thing that would come along, uh, it sounds like, uh, uh, similar. So and you've taught at a number of places from Omega to Shift Network to Penn State to New York to NYU, all over the place, and have written now, uh, one, one book and the second is on the way? Is this

Jonathan Hammond

Second is on the way in Mark. Yes

Matt Kosterman

In March. So the first one is "The Shaman's Mind: Uh, Huna Wisdom to Change Your Life," then you created "The Shaman Within," which is a, a shamanic audio course produced, uh, on Hemi-Sync. Um-

Jonathan Hammond

And I've got another one of those, uh, that, uh, that'll be out, uh, in 2027 that's inspired from the new book, and then the new book called Rewilding Consciousness: Shamanism and Natural Magic that comes out in March. Yeah

Matt Kosterman

of '27. So, so '27, 2027 is just around the corner. In, in, in various of my studies, if you will, it seems to be a fairly pivotal year. So talk about what, what is shifting right now in human consciousness, and what, what's your take on, on what we're going through?

Jonathan Hammond

Well, uh, everything for me comes back to many, many indigenous prophecies that are all-- that have all essentially said the same thing about this time, essentially nineteen fifties and onward. And it, it's also in alignment with the changing astrology as well. Uh, and the prophecies are all about, uh, you know, the, the Quechua, the Mayan, the Hopi, the, uh, uh, Hindu, um,

Matt Kosterman

Human

Jonathan Hammond

the

Matt Kosterman

human, human design.

Jonathan Hammond

Sure, sure, sure. Leaving the Piscean age, entering the Aquarian Age. The, the-- So it's a time when, when, uh, there is a shift, and the prophecies talk about a very scary near miss, meaning that this is a really, uh, dark time,

Matt Kosterman

Угу

Jonathan Hammond

and that, uh, the near miss is because there would be this sort of, uh, global evolution of consciousness that'll go on for, uh, generations. We're right at the beginning of it right now, uh, and I think, uh, experiencing a bit of a, um... I mean, I'm not having it, but, uh, there's a bit of a dark night of the soul happening sociologically, uh, which are-- is always in service. It's always in service to, uh, to, um, transformation and growth and new beginnings.

And the prophecies all talk about, uh, that there would be all of these beings that w- that would incarnate, uh, at this time. Not everyone, but, but many beings who would, uh, be the change makers, the cycle breakers, the, the way pointers toward the, uh, uh, toward the new way. I think it began, uh, with the emergence of the new age. I think the new age fell short in many ways, um, but I think that, um, uh, that that's where we're going. And I think this new consciousness is actually largely a return. I think that it is, um, from my perspective, more about, uh, um, returning to indigenous mind. I don't mean grass huts and, and, uh, and coconut bras.

I'm-- I mean, uh, I mean more, uh, about the values of the indigenous mind. You know, the-- a sense of, uh, that, uh, that everything is alive, uh, that everything is sentient, everything has a form of personhood, everything is interconnected with everything else, uh, a unit of consciousness. I think that's what we're moving toward. I think we're moving away from, uh, separation and fragmentation and toward unity and participation.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah

Jonathan Hammond

and I think, uh, um, because things are so dark right now, that is in service to, uh, recognizing that the way we've been doing it will lead-- has led to that, And that--

Matt Kosterman

when, when you say an, an prophecy's around a near miss, are you talking about a near miss of the extinction, like an ex-

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah, they, they all talk about it.

Matt Kosterman

off...

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah. They always talk about a very, very dark time. A, a time when, uh, when we would, uh, w- when it- we would almost not make it, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

uh, what's interesting is, you know, all my colleagues in the spiritual space, um, and in spiritual media, uh, despite the fact that it is so dark right now, we're all getting the same message about this, that it is, that we, that this is moving in a positive direction. As, as counterintuitive as that may seem given, uh, you know, what we see on television and the ecological stuff and, and all of that. But, um, but it really is, uh, it really is moving toward that, and I, I think that we have to, uh, give clout and legitimacy to, um, creating that. You know, if the, if the old dying world is one of, uh, uh, is one based right now on a lot of destruction, then the opposite of that is creativity.

And I think that the new Earth and the new consciousness is about us enlisting our creativity to create it. I don't think it's here yet, but I think that there, uh ... But, but I think it's coming, and I think that we all have a part to play in creating it

Matt Kosterman

Well, it, it would, it would, it would appear as though, and I've heard talks like that the energy is here, the, the decision has been made at a higher level of humanity to, to move into this, and we're sort of in the death throes of the old. Uh, and, and, and we are ultimately we're the co-creators of it, of, of the, of whatever it is, good, bad, indi- whatever. We, we are, we are party too, yes?

Jonathan Hammond

Yes. I, I would say though that, that, uh, it's not, it's not just humanity. It's, you know, the con- the, the Earth has been waking up too. You know, if, if, uh, if you think of the Earth's geological history, there was a time when, uh, it was not conducive to life, and where there's no life, there's no consciousness. And over billions of years, uh, it has woken up to itself, and I think it's continuing to wake up to itself. Uh, a- and the geologists basically say that the Earth right now is middle-aged, and if you know anything about middle-aged women, um, the, uh, they can no longer deal with the bullshit, you know? And they even, even create the, the heat in their bodies to burn away the, uh, the bullshit that, uh, that is not gonna take them into the next stage of their life.

And I think that's, that's where we are. I think that the Earth is becoming a more elegant version of itself, and we are, uh, humans included, we are Earth beings. We are beings of nature, and so, um, uh, we are, uh, uh, e- evolving, um, along with the Earth be- because we come from the Earth, you know? And so, uh, and so that does mean that we are, w- that we are, we are changing, and we are opening to, um, to new ways of being.

Even the idea that we, we can hold more light, um, uh, is, is something that I think is happening. Other chakras coming online, so to speak, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Higher, higher chakras

Jonathan Hammond

yeah.

Matt Kosterman

the, the, the seven, the, the

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah.

Matt Kosterman

seven in the body.

Jonathan Hammond

Right. Right

Matt Kosterman

Um, yeah, so and you, and, and, and you talk about this in your book 'cause you're explo- you're exploring the, the spirituality and, and how our culture has... Our culture, I, I just like to lump it into programming. Like, we've been programmed to operate a particular way based on history, yes?

Jonathan Hammond

We have been programmed to operate a, a certain way, uh, that is so the background of our reality that we do not even see it. It is so, uh, it is so-- it has been accepted, uh, and we all know what it is. We all know what it looks like. It's, you know, profits over people and,

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm

Jonathan Hammond

and o-othering others and, uh, dis-- the main thing, a disconnection from the natural world, a sense of, uh, superiority over the natural world, a sense of humans as peak identity on the planet, um, all of that stuff. And, uh, um, and so yeah, it's, it's, uh, something... Uh, so, you know, in, in, uh, shamanic healing, there's essentially sort of two core movements. One is the removal of that which obscures our nature and the return, uh, of our true nature that was lost, you know? And so, um, uh, my work is really about, um, um, helping everyone and guiding everyone, uh, who wanna-- who wants to listen to me, uh, about removing those cultural imprints, um, that come from family, that come from culture, come from religion, um, that, uh, that obscure our true nature and obscure our, uh, our authenticity.

This creativity that I'm, that I'm talking about for the new consciousness requires us all to claim and own our unique gift. We all have a gift to give, just as the, as the oak tree, uh, gives, gives its gift through its existence, you know? Uh, it gi-gives us oxygen, you know, just as, uh, uh, everything in nature, uh, has a gift to give, and, and we do too. But when we are adhering to a reality that is one of hierarchy, subservience, uh, and bowing down to, uh, um, domination, you know, and even unconscious enslavement, um, we, we, uh, water down, uh, the creativity that we need to create, uh, uh, the, the new earth and the new consciousness. So it really is about removing something and reclaiming our

Matt Kosterman

essen...

Jonathan Hammond

authenticity, yeah.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, and essen- essentially taking our power back and, and from, from others. I mean, could be looked... I, I look at it again through the view of we're giving our, we give our power away to structures, to, structures, to business structures, to whatever, whatever it may be, and, and, and abide by r- and norms and things that we don't necessarily need to abide by

Jonathan Hammond

In the Hawaiian shamanic tradition, there's a-- one of the principles, uh, is, uh, a, a word called mana, and mana is the, the power from within. Uh, and the, the actual translation of this, uh, principle is all power comes from within. All power comes from within. So even, even the way in which we, uh, give our power away, it's the power within us that did that. So, uh, um, you know, so essentially that, that, uh, all the power of the universe converges at the point that you call you.

Matt Kosterman

Yep

Jonathan Hammond

And, uh, um, and the, uh, in my healing work, all I'm really ever doing with clients is, um, having them cultivate an inside out experience as opposed to an outside in experience. Meaning that I'm, uh, I'm creating my life from inside me, from inside my essence, from inside my authenticity, my inner directionality, my intuition, my, my, my true self, and not adhering to outside, uh, uh, agendas, paradigms, et cetera, that I'm supposed to fit into.

That is a, a huge fundamental difference in how one lives one, one's life.

Matt Kosterman

you know, diametrically opposed. And, and, and arguably, a-a-again, coming at it from, like, a human design perspective, uh, i-it's been said that we've been in this age of sacrificing the one for the many, we're moving into an age of taking back the one and it being, it, it being about the, the individual and the individual expression, unique expression,

Jonathan Hammond

You know, there, there's, there's a feeling that, that I have that, uh, um, that the new-- this new consciousness is more about... That, that truth, tru- real actual truth will take on a higher vibration than love. Love didn't quite work. You know, love, love wa- love was about 2,000 years of empaths, uh, uh, uh, saddling up and, and loving up narcissists, you know? And truth is about that, uh, that there is discernment around what gets our love, you know? And, um,

Matt Kosterman

OK

Jonathan Hammond

fell a little bit short on, in that, uh, uh, they sort of stopped at love and light, uh, and didn't look at, uh, um, the directionality of that love and light and who gets it and what gets it and what doesn't. And, uh, and, and so what we're loving is what is, um, uh, is, is what is actually truthful, you know? And, uh, and it-- a- and I think even the spiritual teachers, the future spiritual teachers are gonna be those who disseminate truth more than guide us towards love. We already know how to love, you know? Uh,

Matt Kosterman

We're

Jonathan Hammond

I... We already know how to love. I think it's about that, you know, that we have to name, um, what we have to name what it is that, that's receiving it, and why.

Matt Kosterman

And h- and how does, so, and how does shamanism fit into this? What, what, how do you define shamanism and, and why do you why is there a

Jonathan Hammond

Well,

Matt Kosterman

of it?

Jonathan Hammond

shamanism is, is the, the sort of reverence and worshiping of the natural world, of nature. You know, that nature is a template that teach us as-- teaches us how to be. So everything in nature is, uh, is, uh, very centered on itself. It self-advocates. It accepts itself as it is. It gives its gift by being exactly as it is. It has no desire or interest in being something other than what it is. It has no interest, uh, or, uh, uh, at all in, uh, anything that doesn't grow it. And at the same time, nature is, uh, also part of, uh, an interconnected system. Uh, so ev- all these self-interested beings, at the same time rely on, uh, a whole system to, uh, bring that self-interest into further existence, to grow itself, to evolve itself.

So, um, uh, so it's that. It's, it's that, um... And that includes the spirits. The spirits, um, are also beings of nature. They are beings of the earth. Uh, and so, um, so when, when we strive or seek to grow ourselves, to evolve ourselves, the spirits are all over that. You know, I think, I think humans can create dysfunctional realities, but they don't get spirits' help with that. That's why those dysfunctional realities seem so godless, because they, uh, f- indeed are.

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

but when we are taking even a step toward growing ourselves, towards growing, uh, the life force, uh, the, the spirits, uh, that sort of hover around the planet and w- with the intention to help, which is all they really wanna do, they're ecstatic to be of service, um, uh, they, they're, they're, they're all over helping us do that. And so when we are of service, when we are of service, we become like them, and that we move into a kind of collegial relationship with the spirits. And that, of course, is the shaman, the, the, the medicine person, the witch, you know, uh, that I'm, I'm colleague-ing with the spirits because I'm like them

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, yeah. And, and this is, this form of shamanism or spirituality is, is, uh, it, it's-- spirituality is, I would say, been un- misunderstood, this type of... H- how, how would you, know, how is this different from what people think of as, as being spiritual? Like, you

Jonathan Hammond

Well, I hear you

Matt Kosterman

actor and, and you didn't think you were being spiritual, and you wanted to go be spiritual someplace else.

Jonathan Hammond

Oh yeah, well, I think I, I, at that time, I just wanted to learn more. I wanted to learn. I wanted to be in school more than anything else. But let, let me, let me say this, that, you know, earth wisdom is about living on earth. And, you know, when I, when I watch the podcast with the, you know, with the transcendent apocalyptic consciousness and, and all that's off planet, you know, and all that, it drives me-- it drives me crazy, you know, because it, it about-- it is about living here.

I don't know where we're going. I don't know where else we're going, you know? Yes, of course, we change form, you know, after we, after we pass on. Cert-certainly we can talk about that. But, uh, earth-based spirituality is about living well, sensually embodied, uh, uh, happily and abundantly on this earth. And that, uh, the energies, whether or not you consider them the, the, the biosphere, the, the air, the sun, the water, that also, uh, grows, uh, uh, grows life on earth.

Matt Kosterman

うん、うん、

Jonathan Hammond

and I think that the, that the realm of the spirits, uh, were, um, from a shamanic perspective, uh, their original, uh, uh, inspiration was the biosphere. Because just as the spirits grow, uh, shine their light on us, uh, uh, uh, to grow us, so does the sun. You know,

Matt Kosterman

んうん。

Jonathan Hammond

in, in the Wiccan tradition, the, uh, the sun was considered the god, you know? Um, so I think that there's a sense of, of, uh, that we're not going anywhere and that we're to grow life here. And, uh, that, that the energies that support the planet, um, just want that for us, you know?

Matt Kosterman

what, like, like let's not worry about Mars right now.

Jonathan Hammond

Let's not

Matt Kosterman

Right, right? I mean, you know, we, we have a few things we can solve here to make things more hospitable.

Jonathan Hammond

Yes. So, so spirituality is, is, is spirituality is, is about I'm not going anywhere. I'm not transcending anything. I'm, uh... Spirituality is to, um, to become myself more fully.

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

That's what we use it for, you know, to, you know, to grow myself, you know

Matt Kosterman

in, we, we... I talk about this on my show all the time, to be embodied and, and, you know, I think a- as somebody who was not embodied, I didn't even know what that meant until I began to become embodied and listen to my body. And, and there's a, there's a whispering that goes on there. I don't always listen to it. I'm still learning. I'm still a baby alien. But, th- and what, what are your, what are your, you know...

Jonathan Hammond

You know, they're, they're, like--

Matt Kosterman

how...

Jonathan Hammond

I hear you. They're, they're kind of like, they're two different kind of loci of directionality. One is mental, one is, one is somatic. Uh, the mental one is filled with everything that we just talked about. All of the, the shoulds, the should nots, the, uh, the, the fears of money, the, uh, the fitting in, the, uh, the, the popularity contest, the, you know, the how I'm supposed to look, all that sociological stuff.

The somatic one is about, uh, the instinct and genuine feeling. You know? I, you know, um, when... A-and we gotta clear that, that mental stuff enough that we know, um, w-what genuine feeling actually is. But embodiment is really about, that my anger, my jealousy, my lust, my, you know, that those things are directional, that they are there for a reason, that they are there to, to, um, uh, to, to guide us somewhere.

You know, even something a-as, as, as, uh, uh, unattractive as jealousy is directional. It's saying, "I want what that guy has." You know? And, and i-if we, if we, uh, think of it that way, um, you know, so the body, the, the body and the, the emotions in the body and, uh, the somatic messaging in the body is the energy of nature. Everything in nature is following that same felt sense,

Matt Kosterman

Yeah.

Jonathan Hammond

know?

Matt Kosterman

as you spoke earlier on a couple, I don't remember the exact points, but there were two or three times things that you said in my body I got-- I felt the energy in my body. involuntarily, there were goosebumps and, uh, waves of energy that moved through my body. And, and to me, that's embodiment. It's a-- to me, like, that's truth. That, that-

Jonathan Hammond

I say in my book, if you wanna be like nature, uh, which is a really good idea because that's the one that's gonna survive, that's the one that's gonna, you know... Uh, um, if you wanna be like nature, uh, cre- be creatively engaged in your present circumstances, attuned to your felt senses for life growth and evolution. Be creatively engaged, uh, with, with your present circumstances and attuned to the felt senses towards life growth and evolution. If you do that, you are in, you are operating in the same patterned intelligence that the entire natural world is operating in.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah,

Jonathan Hammond

And,

Matt Kosterman

that-- Yeah, your version of follow your bliss or, or, you know, as Bashar would say, whatever's your, you know, what, what's the, your highest, uh, h- I forget how he puts it, your highest happiness or whatever, and that's what I've been doing with this podcast. I l- my body lit up when it was suggested to me, and I'm like, "O- okay, I guess I'm..." You know, I don't even listen to these things. And, uh, I said, "Okay, I guess I'm starting one of these," 'cause my body is, you know... The, the, the spirits were turning up the voltage on

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah. You, you could say follow the inner animation. You follow that which animates you, you know? Like, uh, that's, um, that's it. That's it. And, and, um, and the recognition that what animates you, uh, is, uh, if you follow it and you em- um, embody it and, and take action on its behalf, that is a boon to the all

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

uh, because essentially you're growing the life force. It's all about us each individually growing ourselves and growing the life force, you know?

Matt Kosterman

In life force, you could substitute vibration. Raising, raising the vibration.

Jonathan Hammond

Uh, it w-, uh, yeah, yeah, the, the vibration, but I, I mean literally like, like, uh, like life growing, growing, um, uh, growing ourselves into, into more expansive versions of ourselves, you know?

Matt Kosterman

んうん。 う

Jonathan Hammond

Consciousness. So rewilding is a word that I heard in studying ecology. Rewilding means leaving a landscape or an ecosystem alone to become what it will without outside agenda and interference. And when we do that, that landscape grows into a much more, uh, flourishing and successful version of itself.

Matt Kosterman

There's,

Jonathan Hammond

so

Matt Kosterman

an inner intelligence that knows what needs to happen

Jonathan Hammond

Right. Right. Even good parenting, even good parenting is about... There's two ways to think of it. Bad parenting is I have an agenda for you to be this way. Good parenting is I'm really curious about what's coming out of you from the inside. And yes, I'll, I'll steer you away from the hot stove, and I'll, and I'll prepare you for a sometimes dangerous world. But generally, I'm very curious about what is emerging from inside you. You know, that is...

Matt Kosterman

it, a-

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah

Matt Kosterman

a challenge. I, I don't know, do you have children?

Jonathan Hammond

I don't. Well, well, canine children, but,

Matt Kosterman

canine children. Yep, yeah, yeah. But it's a, you know, it, it was, it was actually the birth of my first daughter that was really the, the start of my awakening, if you will, 'cause it was like, "Holy fucking shit, what is this that just moved through me?"

Jonathan Hammond

Ні.

Matt Kosterman

it was terrifying. Um, but then I, I was a, you know, I was able n- not, not always successfully, but I, I watched later on how I had... You know, there was an agenda that I had for my, my kids, and you really have to get out of the way of that agenda, um, for

Jonathan Hammond

Well, uh, right. I mean, it's, it's, um, uh, it's just, it's, it's in the culture. It's in the culture. You know, I mean, I, I write about, I, I write about in the book, uh, uh, you know, if, if the baby's gonna be a boy, he gets a blue room. You know, if the baby's a girl, she gets a pink room. Well, we haven't even dealt with the organic, uh, uh, uh, material that is this actual child, you know?

And we've al- we're already, um, we're already in the process of doing it. So, so yeah, it's, um, uh, it is really about being curious about what is emerging from, from the inside, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, coming into harmony with life, y- you talk also in your book about, you know, we talked about there's this moment in history, um, and you have this concept of the Wetiko. Is that how you say it, Wetiko virus? So this virus, what is this virus? What is Wetiko, and,

Jonathan Hammond

come--

Matt Kosterman

it hungry ghost? Is it adjacent?

Jonathan Hammond

A hungry ghost is definitely, uh, of synonymous. It comes from the K- it comes from the Cree people. Uh, and what they recognized was that the coloniz- colonizers, the desecrators, those that, uh, that, uh, were very separate from nature, what the Hawaiians would call the haole, you know, those without breath, you know, those without spirit, you know. Um, that, uh, essentially that, that, uh, they would attract or, uh, or, or that they were infected with a kind of mind virus, a parasite of the soul that causes them to, uh, to, uh, uh, be, uh, super greedy and, uh, other, uh, everything and dominate things and claim the- claim themselves as, uh, um, as, uh, uh, a supreme role.

And, uh, and so it was, it was-- they really saw that, um, that sort of greed and selfless- selfishness, which Lord knows, um, w- it's-- the culture right now is infected with it. Um, uh, and they saw that as a spiritual affliction and that, that, um, and that it was a kind of parasite that would eventually not only kill its host, um, m- uh, make its presence unknown to its host, and ultimately have, uh, the host would cannibalize itself.

So it's a self-cannibalizing, um, uh... And, and it's, it's largely based on a disconnection from the natural world, or another way to say it, a disconnection from unitive or interconnected consciousness, you know, because that's the, uh, that's where we run into problems. That's why a return to nature is so helpful because everything in nature exemplifies that which is a unitive, interdependent consciousness.

Yeah.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, and it would, uh, in, in, in the guy- you know, Paul Selig's and Melchizedek's, Melchizedek's words, it's, uh, you know, denial of the divine. know,

Jonathan Hammond

Sure.

Matt Kosterman

we, we, we think of ourselves as separate from, from God

Jonathan Hammond

Or, or the adherence to a false divine. You know, the, you know, the Gnostics talk about the demiurge, you know, the false human imposter god, you know, that, uh, that masquerades as the real one, you know, and the archonic forces or the, the, uh, the enforcers of this false god, you know? So, um, uh, you know, and, and we see in a lot of, sorry, uh, religious people, traditionally religious people, but we see in a lot of religious paradigms now, like, you know, that, that, uh, people adhering to that false god, you know, and, uh, um, and following man-made, uh, uh, uh, versions of the divine and calling it the divine, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, it's, uh, we- we've, in many cases we've made the divine in the image of man as opposed to the other way around.

Jonathan Hammond

That's right. That's right

Matt Kosterman

And so in, in the, in the sh- in the, shamanic framework in the three worlds, does this fit into three worlds or is this upper world, lower world, middle world? What's the, what are the... When you, when you look at the three worlds of the cosmology of shamanism.

Jonathan Hammond

Sure. So,

Matt Kosterman

So, and how

Jonathan Hammond

y-

Matt Kosterman

that connect to us?

Jonathan Hammond

sure. Well, it, you know, the, the, uh... Let's go with the upper world just because it's easy. The upper world is, is the, the s- the, the spirits, the pantheon, the, the, uh, the ascended masters, the angels, that which helps to grow life, that which is, shows up and is in service to and ecstatic to help. The- which from a shamanic perspective, uh, we attract rather than we reach toward. We attract when we want to grow ourselves. Um, so that's sort of the, the upper world. Um,

Matt Kosterman

That's like the, the bread- that's following the breadcrumbs. Like, you, they, they, they're, they're dropping the breadcrumbs for you

Jonathan Hammond

The, you, they, yeah. They're, they're, they're creating, you know, the, the upper world, uh, spirits, you know, it's like they create synchronicities and fortuitous meetings and, uh, bring things together and, and, uh, all of that. Um, the lower world is our instinctive nature. That is, that is the, um, not only the power from within, but the essence within. That which, um, that which ... So, so the, the blade of grass has the instinctual knowing and knowledge of how to become itself,

Matt Kosterman

Угу

Jonathan Hammond

you know. And so the lower world is that, those unconscious, uh, those unconscious, intuitive, instinctive forces within us, that which yearns to be grown. And then the middle world is, uh, when the middle world looks nice, it's just this world. And when it looks nice, it's when, uh, when instinct has been met by, uh, spirit, or when true essence has been met by spirit, then we create a middle world that, uh, that is in alignment with, with, uh, what nature's doing, you know. Um, but, um, a, a lot of times the, the, the deep work is really about instinctive nature because, uh, which is the lower world stuff, the unconscious stuff.

You know, everything, everything that we experience outwardly is seeded in the unconscious. You know, the, the, the inward dream, uh, creates the outward dream. And if your inward dream is, is, uh, uh, riddled with, uh, dysfunction and, uh, and, um, low self-esteem and feeling bad about yourself and, um, and, and all of that, um, uh, it doesn't have what, it doesn't have the right, uh, uh, unconscious material, uh, to, to grow into what it is to become outwardly.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Hammond

the middle world

Matt Kosterman

the Jungian, it's the Jungian that until you make the unconscious conscious, it'll run your life and you'll call it fate.

Jonathan Hammond

You'll call it fate

Matt Kosterman

You'll, it'll, you just think this is what's, what I'm meant to do.

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah

Matt Kosterman

your work, what, what is it, what does it look like? What is, when, when you're working with somebody? Who, who comes to you?

Jonathan Hammond

Uh, well now that it's changed. It's changed. Now I, I really get, uh, generally speaking, I get people, even if they're, even if they really have a lot of healing to do, I get people who are those people who've incarnated at this time to be the way pointers and the change makers. I get the people who are, who are, um... Because I- that's what I am, and I think that, um, that that's what I attract. The, I get the healers. I get a lot of healers, you know. They might not be healers like me,

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm

Jonathan Hammond

on some level they are, uh, they are in service. They have organized their, their life to be in some way in service to the collective. I don't mean selfless service. They can be, you know, uh, um, successful and all that. But, um, that tends, that tends to be a lot of what I get, you know. In terms of my work, um, in terms of what I do more than anything else, you know, you tell me your story, you tell me what's going on in your life, and if the outward world is a reflection of your inward world, you just told me what you believe in your inward world.

You know? So a lot of times in a first session, people are amazed about, "How could you know that? How could you know that I believe that about myself? How could you know?" You know. And I go, "You just told me. You just told me." Because your outside world, you know, if, if, um, you know, if you have a sadistic boss that you don't like, you know, there's some part of you that is b- that is congruent and okay with being in relationship with someone who's sadistic.

Matt Kosterman

Угу

Jonathan Hammond

uh, other- otherwise you wouldn't be there. You know? So, so, uh, it's that more than anything else. So it's about that I, I see the outward world and, um, and, uh, and then we gotta look at, uh, what- what's going on, what- what's held in the unconscious, what's held in the hidden. You know, what's, what's held in, in the dark. You know, from a shamanic perspective, uh, even an earth-based perspective, um, the everything emerges, even the universe emerges out of the dark. You know, the, the, the sort of

Matt Kosterman

void.

Jonathan Hammond

the void. The void or the, or, or the goddess's womb.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah

Jonathan Hammond

You know, the goddess's womb, which is black, you know. And, um, and it's out of that, that, uh, manifest existence is, is born. So the womb of your unconscious, so to speak, you know, uh, is also what is s- what is, uh, birthing, uh, your life. So it is about, like, looking at that, you know. And, um, and there's, you know, there's a lot in there. There's a lot in the, the, to examine. There's a lot in, in, there's a lot in there that is not, um, that is not, uh, helpful or true, um, uh, for who we fundamentally are, you know.

So that's what we have to look at it.

Matt Kosterman

C- so there's, so y- y- you're inviting people to tell you their story

Jonathan Hammond

Sure

Matt Kosterman

basically. What are their stories? What's, what's creating their current existence? And this is, and, and then are you also, are you working, uh, obviously you're very intuitive, empathic. You're work- you're, you're, you're working with things they might not be present to

Jonathan Hammond

Working with things that may not be present too. I mean, I, I would say that I'm very attuned to their-- to the, to the unconscious forces. At the same time, um, th-this sounds a little, uh... however it sounds. Uh, you know, their higher, their higher self is, is, uh, oftentimes speaking to me and kind of telling me, um, uh, y- the higher self being what their highest potential is, where it is, you know, things that they aren't-- don't even necessarily have access to, you know, because, uh, right now we're dealing with a tack in my foot.

We gotta move the tack in my foot before I can form my highest potential, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Right.

Jonathan Hammond

but, but I, you know, I'm getting messaging from that as well, you know? Um, uh, uh, a-and also just, um, about that there is a, um, a myth or a hidden story or a symbolic meaning to everything that we experience in our lives. You know, that is really what living a spiritually driven life is, is, is that it's, it's a search for meaning. It's about why these things happen, even the things that we don't like, you know? Uh, or the things that we wish didn't happen, you know, they, you know. And, um, and that, that's an on... You know, my, my clients tend to stay for, uh...

they tend to stay because it's, it's about what-- That's an endless process. We're not-

Matt Kosterman

it's cy- it's cyclical, right? I mean, you're looking what are the patterns that are coming up over and over again, and how are we clearing,

Jonathan Hammond

Yes. And also, you know, there are time, y- you know, when, when, when it's time to change, it's time to change. And there are, there are times when, uh, you know, I, I say a well-lived life, there are probably seven or eight major iterations of ourselves, you know? And, and, uh, and, um, and each one, if we're going to traverse it, is going to bring up, uh, fear of the unknown and, uh, gonna require courage and gonna require faith, uh, and gonna require, uh, even new unconscious patterns that we have to, we have to actually program into us, you know?

Uh, you know, I, I often, um, give the example of, y- you know, I wasn't always a spiritual teacher. I had an idea that I should become a spiritual teacher, but I wasn't one, which means that I did not hold the unconscious patterning of spiritual teacher. So, uh, um, and so I had to then go through the process of seeding my unconscious with the pattern of spiritual teacher. So I apprenticed with the shamans, and I read my books, and I, uh, you know, and I, uh, did all my studies and sat next to spiritual teachers that I, that, uh, that, uh, resonated with me. And over time, I was building an unconscious pattern of spiritual teacher until eventually, uh, and, and white-knuckling through my first classes, you know, and all of that.

And then eventually spiritual teacher, because it was now held as a pattern in my unconscious, um, uh, my outward world began to reflect spiritual teacher back to me, you know? And so, so, uh, that, and that, that-- And that was because there was some part of me that said, "I think I'm supposed to become that. That feels, that, that feels right."

Matt Kosterman

Yeah. Yeah, I could relate that to, you know, become-- I work, my main job is as a professional photographer and, and I had always sort of been in and around that world and, um, you know, you, you, you, you wanna be a photographer, you gotta go take pictures. Like, you gotta find, find event, you know, whatever, uh, uh, and do the thing. Act, act like a photographer,

Jonathan Hammond

That's right. That's right.

Matt Kosterman

And so you acted l- and

Jonathan Hammond

Everything... Uh, any new pattern, any new pattern becoming a new iteration of ourself or, uh, um, or even attracting, uh, something in or being energetically congruent with what it is that we want does require, yes, the inspiration, uh, yes, the, the, the visualization, yes, even talking about it, but the actual embodiment of it, the actual embody... Taking action on its behalf in an embodied way. That's, uh, because the unconscious is connected to the body and because we're trying to seed the unconscious with a new reality, the bo- the, the unconscious knows that when we start embodying it through action that we mean business, and it starts to seed the pattern

Matt Kosterman

Start, yeah. I mean, I can even look at it for people. I mean, you know, there's a lot of talk in the worlds of manifestation and bringing in abundance and whatnot, and I know own experience, I had a lot of financial struggles and, and I remember very distinctly after I moved back into the city about five and a half years ago, and I've always loved the store Room & Board. It's kind of a, a, a, a, you know, mid-century modern-ish. And I went... I walked into the one downtown and started looking at prices of things 'cause it-- I, I used to like it when I had money, and then I lost money, and I had this whole identity crisis. And I remember being like-- it was like, oh, like there was this like, "Oh, God, it's so expensive.

I could never afford it." And then, and then I literally was like, "No, you're gonna have what you want." Like, it was like, it, it was like I had to tell myself, like, "It's okay. It, it doesn't say anything about you." But, but I had to sort of attune to it and open to the possibility. And, and then, you know, my mother gifted me with this, this love of, of deals, of, of finding an outlet store or finding...

And then I, then I found out, oh, there's an outlet store for Room & Board out in Oak Brook. And so I started looping out to Oak Brook, you know, once a month and see what would show up on a deal, and I, you know, was able to furnish my house very, actually quite reasonably with wonderful stuff. But I had to open to it.

Jonathan Hammond

Uh, thought is a precursor to form. Thought is a precursor to form, and that means that, that, uh, when we, when we finance and give clout and legitimacy to a, a, a thought form that, uh, that blocks us from what we want, um, uh, that, that we are literally creating that reality. Now, there are times when, uh, when we actually can't afford the thing that, you know... But, but, um, but then it becomes about, uh, give it, give it, um, a sense of process. I can't... Now, I remember when I, when I was here on vacation, um, my partner and I, we were, we, we were looking at, uh, a, a certain place that was like this, you know, two million dollar gorgeous, you know. And, uh, I remember thinking to myself when we left, we were like, we were sort of jaws on the floor about it.

And, um, and then I remember that both of us, we would not say out loud that we C-A-N-T A-F-F-O-R-D it. We would not say it out loud,

Matt Kosterman

say it,

Jonathan Hammond

though we couldn't. We couldn't. But, but, um, because that wasn't the, uh, that wasn't the reality that, um, that we were moving toward. You know, we, we just, um, um, we just let that, uh, we just sort of let that be. And, um, and, and, uh, eventually, you know, eventually we're... Well, we didn't get the two million dollar place, but we got, you know,

Matt Kosterman

you

Jonathan Hammond

got something, um, you know,

Matt Kosterman

some, yeah, something nice.

Jonathan Hammond

yeah.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah,

Jonathan Hammond

it

Matt Kosterman

a,

Jonathan Hammond

is important. It really is important.

Matt Kosterman

s- I saw a f- a fascinating little clip of a rabbi, 'cause I follow some Kabbalah stuff on, on, on Instagram, and, and they said, "You know, typically in a Jewish household when you're, when you're young and, and you say to your parents, you know, 'I want whatever. I want X,' like in, in my house it's, 'We can't afford it.'" That was what we hear. Like, "We can't afford it." In the Jewish house it's, "How can we afford it? How can we afford that?" Right? And you're asking the universe, "How can I afford it?" And it'll show you how you can afford it.

Jonathan Hammond

A good way to think of it, again, to align with nature, that, you know, when a thought form, uh, doesn't have any movement in it... Everything in nature is moving. It's, it's changing. It's, you know. So when a thought form doesn't have any movement in it, when it's concretized, when there's a sense of like, uh, that, that, that there's a stuckness there, you know, "I can't afford it," you know, um, rather than, "I'm in the process of, I'm looking forward to."

I mean, these things, these things change everything. They all of a sudden add movement to thoughts and, um, and put you in, uh, in the actual reality that you're in, which is one of process. Everything is a process. We're in a, a continuous process. And so to align our thoughts with that, um, uh, is, is, is to, um, is to help us become what it is that we are supposed to become. But when we, when we really double down on... You know, even the, in the, in the Hawaiian tradition, there's this, this idea of aloha, which we think means a- hello and goodbye, but it's actually a kind of blessing. It's actually saying to-- when you say aloha to someone, you're kind of saying, um, "I, I see you, I see life, we're breathing together, we're in th-this existence together, and, um, and hallelujah."

That's sort of like, you know, what it's getting at. Sharing life force with another, you know? And so, you know, I often tell people, "When you see someone who has something that you don't have, rather than double down on, 'I don't have that thing,' bless the fact that they have it, because you're already beginning a kind of alchemical process of m-merging your energy with someone that has it."

Matt Kosterman

Ja,

Jonathan Hammond

You know. Uh, and so it-it's that. It's that when we separate ourselves from what we don't have, you know, that's, um, that... Y-you know, I, I often joke when I'm teaching at the Omega Institute, I-- there's always someone in the class who sits in the back with their arms folded and thinks they should be teach-teaching the class, and they're never going to teach the class.

Matt Kosterman

Uh-huh

Jonathan Hammond

Because, be-because rather than what's that guy-- "What Kool-Aid is this guy drinking 'cause he's in the front of the class? Why is he here? How did it happen?" You know. They're just doubling down on the fact that they're not that, and I am that, and they're mad.

Matt Kosterman

And they're

Jonathan Hammond

As

Matt Kosterman

it

Jonathan Hammond

opposed to like enter into a, um, a co-creative, uh, um, a, a exchange with this person, energetically, even with your own imagination, you know. Uh, how did they become that? You know.

Matt Kosterman

What, what was his teaching? What was his schooling? Well, and, and that's sort of adjacent to another topic that I, I, I'm, I'm eager to dive into, and that's the, the, uh, Ho'oponopono, Which is ultimately yes? I mean, for- a, a form of forgiveness. So ta- tell, tell a little bit about, uh, Ho'oponopono and its r-

Jonathan Hammond

yeah,

Matt Kosterman

m-

Jonathan Hammond

Ho'oponopono is a, it, it's a Hawaiian word that means, uh, ho'o is causative, so it means to make, and pono means right. And it's doubled, so ponopono means to make doubly right, to make the right, make right more right, or, uh, to align, uh, to be in alignment with oneself and alignment with, with God. Uh, uh, you can ho'oponopono the yard. It's about cleaning it up. That's what, you know, that's really what it's about more than anything else. So we, uh, Ho'oponopono, it, it is about forgiveness, but it's specific because it's about that, um, that we have a kind of inner child who has believed certain things about him or herself or themself that, uh, is not alignment with their true nature.

You know, I'm, I'll never amount to, I'm not smart enough, uh, uh, uh, uh, um, I'm, uh, I don't look right, w-whatever.

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

And,

Matt Kosterman

judgment

Jonathan Hammond

yeah, some patterns in us, and we all have them, that are born of unlove. And in Ho'oponopono, we administer love to that part of us and say, uh, say, uh, um, "I want to love you into removing this obscuration that you hold about yourself. And I see that you hold it, and the forgiveness is about please forgive me for letting you hold it. Please forgive me for all the times when I doubled down and said, 'Yes, that is what you are.' Please forgive me for all the times when I put you in a relationship with someone who treated you and fortified that pattern."

You know? Uh, and so you're, you're, you're getting, uh, in a way you're getting your, your, your inner child or your, your unconscious to, uh, even forgive the part of you that, uh, that didn't do this sooner. You know?

Matt Kosterman

ん

Jonathan Hammond

that's, that's sort of, that's sort of what it is. So that, so that, uh, it, it can, um, so that we can release, uh, uh, a- or recalibrate a deep sense of self and self in relationship to the world that is incongruent with, uh, with n-nature, with growth, and with our own, uh, fundamental essence. You know? So we all have that stuff in us, you know? So it's, it's a deep healing process. So I, I use it both as a, as a kind of meditation, and it's kind of like a philosophical backdrop through which I, I, um, uh, I expl- I, I work with healing, you know? Because essentially it's all about, it's all about what in there is not true, not false, that you learned from someone, um, that you have to unlearn, you know?

Yeah.

Matt Kosterman

actually was-- I, I, I, I was-- it was told to me through a, a-another woman who I interviewed, uh, last year, um, uh, when I was going through my struggles, and she said, you know, "The body's the last thing to come along," was one of her, you know, things that she said, which is the densest. But then she also suggested looking into Ho'oponopono, and I did, and it was fascinating, and then I was inspired to, to use it at my mother's, uh, service and, and because w-we weren't, we didn't reconcile, uh, our differences in this l- in, in this life.

We've-- I've, I've since done so, but I, I led the, I led the folks there in a, in a Ho'oponopono, which was super powerful and brought just an instant sort of calming energy to the room. then l- a couple of years later, I was doing a solo psilocybin journey, I a-all of a sudden heard, thought, whatever you wanna call it when that's going on, "Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna Ho'oponopono all your parts." it was like, all of the parts. Started with the physical, started with the toes, worked the way up the body, did the organs, did the muscles, did the, you know, the psychic, but, like, all the things. It was just gu-- and it, it was, it was fucking crazy, the, the, the energy and the healing and the, the stuff.

I, I wrote it up. It's on my, my-- somewhere out there in the interwebs, but I wrote up, like, this process and the things that, that... And I was literally just guided to do it, and it was beautiful. Um, very

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah. If you, if, if you think of it like, like we come in as sort of a perfect unstained canvas of divinity, and then we take on obscurations that which blocks it. And, and so ho'oponopono is about, is about removing that. It's also, uh, about unitive consciousness in that because everything in the outside world is seeded in us, that means that on some level, um, uh, even the things that we don't like, uh, that we may not even understand how we were, uh, uh, complicit in, in creating.

You know,

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

we do, uh, you know, if, if there's something outside of you that you don't like, you do ho'oponopono with yourself because, uh, because as you move into, uh, your, uh, your pure divinity, uh, you contribute to, uh, do, uh, removing that blemish, that blemish, uh, in a unitive way. So, uh

Matt Kosterman

and, and, and, and what's the pro- t- t- talk about it, 'cause we didn't, we, we talked about what it is w- you know, conceptually. What are the actual words?

Jonathan Hammond

Well, traditionally there, there are, there are four phrases. Um, uh, and, and, you know, there's, there's a school that just says, "Oh, you just say, say the four phrases and you're doing it." And I, I, I don't think that's super helpful. You know, I think that's a little, um, uh, uh, even superstitious. I, I think it's, uh, it's more directed than that. It's about I recognize a hurt. I recognize something... Uh, I recognize a suffering. I recognize something in me that, um, that is calling for attention. And, um, and I, uh, and I, I'm separate from it, 'cause there's the person doing Ho'oponopono, and then there's the part of us that actually needs it, you know? And then, um, I administer I love you, you know.

I, because whatever this thing is, it was born of unlove, so I'm here now, and I love you. Ho'oponopono is so about I'm here now, you know. Um, I'm, "I'm sorry," and I'm sorry really means I'm sorry that you feel that way about yourself. I'm sorry that there were circumstances that led you to understand the world in this way. I see you. So I'm sorry really means, "I see you. I see this problem for what it is." Um, please forgive me is about, uh, all the times in which I didn't do this, all the times in which I let you f-uh, feel this way, uh, with a promise. Pl- you can forgive me now because I will not contribute to you further entrenching this false sense of self.

Matt Kosterman

うんうん、

Jonathan Hammond

You know, I will address it every time. Uh, and thank you. Thank you for, um, uh, uh, listening to me now. Thank you for adhering to this new reality. Thank you for even claiming this false self, because you probably needed to do it at the time in order to survive, you know. Uh, and, um, and, and so it's that, you know. So it's, it's a process. It-a-it's, uh, um, not just a, a one-time process. It's, it's, uh, you know... Um, one of the, one of my teachers said, um, when someone said, "How much Ho'oponopono is a-appropriate? How much should I do?" He said, he said, "It's tedious." He's a Hawaiian man. He said, "It's tedious. It's incessant."

Matt Kosterman

And

Jonathan Hammond

know. You know, which means that, you know, that when there's something coming up on your screen of awareness that you don't like, that, that, uh, i-is hurtful, that is, um, that makes you, uh, feel badly about yourself or, or, um, you know, that you, you address it, that you look at it, that you, um, that you, uh, ad-administer love to it, that you take care of it, you know.

Matt Kosterman

the, it's like this, it's like a sel- a little self-contained inner child work basically. It's like a little, little ball of IFS

Jonathan Hammond

It, it real- i-i-in many ways it is. And in many ways you can even think of, you can even think of like, you know, um, you know, the inner child sort of sitting next to you.

Matt Kosterman

うん。 う

Jonathan Hammond

about himself or herself or themself. You know, you're either fortifying those beliefs through whoever it is that you're inviting into your life and whatever actions you're taking, whatever thoughts you're legitimizing, or, uh, you are showing them a different reality. Um, uh, and a re- a, a reality that, uh, i- is, is, um, in alignment with their nature and gonna get them where they, where they, where, where they wanna go, so that they will accept that they are now in, um, a reality where they do look okay, where they can have money, where,

Matt Kosterman

んうん

Jonathan Hammond

where, you know, they're, they're, um, where they are, are, are not to be mistreated, whatever, you know

Matt Kosterman

yeah. And so i- and would you, would, would Ho'oponopono fall under H- Hawaiian it separate from that? 'Cause y- I know your first book was all about Hawaiian shamanism, and now your new book is shamanically

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah

Matt Kosterman

you're, you're moving into witchcraft and paganism and, and this kind of stuff

Jonathan Hammond

Um, you know, it, it... What, uh, I was a sh- a student of shamanism for, for years and years and years, and what I, when I found the Hawaiian stuff, uh, I also have, I have a real psychological bent. You know, I, I don't, I don't have, um, uh, I have counseling training, but, uh, but I'm not a psychotherapist. But I, uh, but I, I have a deep understanding of, of, of psychology at this point. And what I found was, uh, i- in the Hawaiian stuff, like a shamanic psychology. And a lot of times with the shamanism stuff, you know, it's journeys, and it's, it's, uh, it's ritual, and it's ceremony. It's a little ungrounded, and it's like, um, uh, and it's n- and it's separate from the Western mind. And so, um, when I found the, the Hawaiian stuff, I found, um, a, a, a kind of psychological correlate that helped me understand why the shamanic stuff was there, how it worked, why it was effective.

Um, and, and also, um, you know, even the idea of it, it was the first time that I, I really, uh, uh, saw in, an indigenous, uh, uh, system, uh, the, the conscious mind and the higher self. These were all things that were, that were,

Matt Kosterman

Oh, okay

Jonathan Hammond

that were all, uh, in, in the Haw... I've since come to see that, that, uh, many indigenous cultures have, have versions of the unconscious and the, and the higher self and, uh, and the middle self, you could say.

Matt Kosterman

Ja

Jonathan Hammond

so it was that. And, um, and the whole Ho'oponopono was, was when I, when I came across what it was, I thought, "Well, this, this paradigm, uh, is everything that I understand about healing." This, you know, this very simple idea of, uh, administering love to something that needs attention in order to be transformed into something else.

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

when we do that, we enlist, uh, a spiritual process where we invite in the spirits to help us do that. Because when we're doing that, we're moving more towards our authentic nature, and as I said before, the spirits are all over authentic nature. So it was just in that, um, in that paradigm that I thought, "This is, uh, this is a, a kind of destination." You know? So, so, um, so it's just, it's, it's a, it's a backdrop through which I a- approach almost all my healing, you know?

Matt Kosterman

And, and so if I'm, if I'm in a session with you, are you doing, are you having me do shamanic journeying? Like I'm going and I'm getting guides in the lower world and,

Jonathan Hammond

It, it depe-- it, uh, it depends on, it, it depends on, um... I mean, I'll say this. When I wrote my first book, a lot of my clients who'd been with me for a long time, they, uh, they read the book and they said, "I didn't know we were doing Hawaiian stuff," you know? And I said, "Well, you didn't n- you didn't need to know. You were-- You're not a student of, uh, Hawaiian shamanism. You didn't need to know. But, uh, you know, but it does come from somewhere." So it really depends on, um, it depends on what it is that you need. It depends on the, the kind of student you are. It depends on whether or not, uh, whether or not this is about, uh, I just wanna work on this and heal it and, um, and move on, or whether or not it's about, um, uh, uh, it, it's about what feeds you.

So, so it, it really does, it really does depend. It really does depend on, on, um, on how we work, you know? Uh, and even, you know, even some people it's like, it's like you want me to go quantum physics? Because you're not gonna buy the woo-woo stuff, I can go quantum physics. You know, like my medicine bag is pretty big at this point, you know? So essentially like, um, uh, you know, whatever it is that you're needing, I probably have a context that, um, uh, that is gonna be beneficial to you. So it's more about my medicine bag is, is big enough so that I can meet you. You don't have to meet me in a certain system that you have to adhere to. That, that's really--

Matt Kosterman

it.

Jonathan Hammond

I have no interest in that, yeah

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, yeah. And it might be, um, plant teachers like tobacco or medicines or roses or whatever. It may be

Jonathan Hammond

I mean, I, I,

Matt Kosterman

it may be magic. It may be

Jonathan Hammond

maybe you're right. Right. It, it might be any of those things. I mean, you know, I've, uh, I have said to people, I've said to people, "I think it's time for you to go work, work, work with the plants on this," you know?

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

then there are other clients who've been with me for a decade, I've never once said that, you know? Uh, so it really just, uh, um, it really just depends on, on where they are and, and what it is that they're, what it is that they're needing. And ultimately, because all power comes from within, um, it is about that... You know, I always say to my clients, they usually come every two weeks, and I, I say, "You know, that means that there are 13 days and 23 hours where you're not with Jonathan," you know.

"What are you doing? What are you doing during that time?" You know, "Are you living a spiritually driven life? Are you recog- are recognizing synchronicities? Are you looking at symbolic meanings of things in your life that have shown up that maybe you don't like?" You know, "Are you attending to your thoughts? Are you making sure that your thoughts have movement in them? Are you meditating? Are you, uh, do you have an altar? Are you lighting a candle on behalf of what it is that you want?" Whatever it is, you know, there are so many ways in, you know.

Matt Kosterman

right.

Jonathan Hammond

it, it's, it's about that 'cause ult- ultimately, um, uh, the, everyone's spiritual life is, is their own, uh, their own to curate.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah. I mean, it, I, I, what strikes me is that you're sort of the, uh, the opposite of an orthopedic surgeon. The, the orthopedic surgeon always wants to operate,

Jonathan Hammond

There, there's a, um, one of the, one of the Hawaiian, uh, one of the principles in Huna is, uh, uh, a word called pono, and the translation is effectiveness is the measure of truth. Effectiveness is the measure of truth. So it wor- i-it's true if it's r- if it works, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Ja,

Jonathan Hammond

So that's all I care about, i-i-if it works, you know? So, uh, that's why I have to have a lot of different ways in which to, to get it to work, 'cause it's gonna be, uh, uh, different for everyone, you know? But,

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, I just, yeah, I just had a guest who, uh, Marissa, who was on an ayahuasca journey with a broken tibia and r- experienced regrowing her tibia during the journey and went and had an X-ray afterward, and it was fine Truth

Jonathan Hammond

Yep. Yeah. I, I, I mean, I, I often say the two different kinds of truth are even, you know, uh, so I, I broke my bone. That's one truth. That's the outward truth. That's the, the linear materialist truth. Uh, and you go to a doctor to set that, you know. And then you go to the shaman to find out why you broke your bone. That's a different truth,

Matt Kosterman

Uh,

Jonathan Hammond

you know? And that one is actually a more foundational and maybe even a truer truth than having broke the bone because that is the one, that is the one that, uh, that provides, uh, the information about, uh, about the cause and, and, and why, and what, what's the symbol of the broken bone and, um, what were you not paying attention to it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's not about blame the victim, but it is about, like, that our... If our fingerprints are on everything that we experience, if our inward dream creates our outward dream, then on some level there is some sort of unconscious complicity with this broken bone, and let's find out what it is

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, again, you're, you're causing the matter. There's a p- there's an aspect of you that made it happen.

Jonathan Hammond

That's right. That's right

Matt Kosterman

Um, and so in, in, and in, shifting gears a little bit, uh, from that, you write about, uh, um, masculine-feminine polarity. Um, if we're looking at, you know, if I'm looking at the bigger picture of where we've been in a very masculine, patriarchal thing, um, and you do men's work, which is of interest to me as well. So, um, what, what, what do you, what do you see in these polarities? Um, and, and why do you think, men really, like I do, really need to step up at this time?

Jonathan Hammond

Well, because we're so disconnected from the Earth now, uh, because there is such a separation between s- human, h- between humans and nature, which yes, began in Genesis. You know, Genesis 1, which says that we have dominion over the Earth. You know, that we, you know. Uh, so there's such a separation from nature, which means it's, there's a separation from the feminine. The Earth births. The Earth is feminine. The Earth, you know. Um, and so because of that, uh, there is a, a dis- a, a deep disconnection from the feminine. Well, if the, the masculine is to, uh, expand the feminine, uh, which is what the, the, the, you know, just as the, just as the sun expands whatever it shines on, you know.

Um, and just as, as, um, the, the, the, uh, the presence of the, of the, of the male or the man expands the woman into having a baby, you know. It expands her into the, the, uh, the cosmic expansion of the feminine orgasm, you know, which is, uh, big and, big and, and, uh, full body and cosmic and all that, you know. And if, if, so if the masculine is to grow the life force, you know, then the masculine needs to have a deep attunement with his own feminine so that he understands the feminine that he, that he serves.

And so men's work is about, um, that, that we're growing the, uh, the aspects of us that are disconnected from our feminine, that are disconnected from feeling. And, you know, the, the sort of, uh, the patriarchal masculine is about, uh, not feeling. You know, it's about becoming so hardened that you run towards the bullets. That's considered masculine. I consider that crazy, you know. Uh, you know, uh, and, and but, but, but that's it. And, and becoming a Superman and becoming, uh, you know, uh, and, and, and, and becoming someone who doesn't have any weakness, who doesn't have any fear, who doesn't have any, you know, and who's incompetent and doesn't show it, doesn't show it

Matt Kosterman

it is the key, yeah

Jonathan Hammond

Don't show it. And then, and, and stuff it down, stuff it down, you know? And then it's in competition with other men, uh, with the idea of, of who does that best. You know, who's doing that the best, you know? Um, and, and then, and the more that you don't feel and the harder you become, you know, we'll, uh, you know, we'll, uh, the, the, the highest paradigm is the soldier and you, and you, the...

And you get the trophy of a woman at the end. And it's just, it's, you know. And so it's about, you know, I mean, it's just, it, it, it's about that. And so men really need, um, need a, a, a recalibration with their feminine, with the soft, with being soft with themselves. And men's work is about men going into a space together where traditionally it's all big dick contest and, and who's, uh, you know, and who I'm in competition with and, you know, and who has more money, and who has better car, and all that.

Going into a room with men and allowing for that softness, you know. Because, because then they leave that space, and the feminine that they serve, they now have a deeper understanding of, and they know what it is, they know how to feel into her and feel what it is that she needs. At the same time, women need to recognize that they are not supposed to be, uh, you know, the, the, um, the, the feeler and, uh, the supper-upper of, uh, of the doltish, unfeeling masculine.

That they are to receive from life, you know, as we all are, you know. Uh, and there's this sense of, y- the, the, you know, the patriarchy is all about productivity and taking action. It isn't about really, like, receiving from life, you know. And it's, it's supposed to be both, you know. And so a, a lot of times with, when I'm do- when I've done men's work with, with, with the people, um, a lot of the men, they complain, they go, "I can't find a woman who has the self-esteem to actually receive what it is that I'm offering her," you know.

And it's because they've been, uh, they've been living in a sea of men that don't, that, that haven't embodied that in themselves, you know.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah

Jonathan Hammond

at the same time, the women are complaining that they, you know, that, that, that, uh, that the men aren't, aren't, um, aren't, aren't feeling into them, you know, and, uh, and all that. So, so it's a massive return to the feminine, you know, that's, that's really what's needed now. You know, that's, um, a

Matt Kosterman

a, even a, e-e-even among the feminine, I would argue, and I've argued this before,

Jonathan Hammond

massive return. Even on

Matt Kosterman

in, go into business or whatever and they think they need to be like the man, they need to be like the masculine, and they don't. They need to lead from the divine feminine side

Jonathan Hammond

Right, right. And, and that they have to perpetually do, and they have to per- be, you know, the, and they're the fixer, and they're the, you know, um, and they're the everything, you know, and, and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. So it, it's both. And it's, it's not about, it's not about, uh, um, women taking some sort of un-active role and all that. It's just about calibrating these polarities so that they're a little bit more balanced, you know?

Matt Kosterman

And do you think that this will bring about, uh, you know, there's been a, a, a, a massive attempt over the millennium for the, the male to dominate the female, especially sexually. Um,

Jonathan Hammond

Well, I hear you

Matt Kosterman

coming back into right relationship there?

Jonathan Hammond

Well, um, you-- sure. I mean, that's definitely going on, but that, you know, that's about the, you know, uh, that's about the, the, the unconscious hatred toward the feminine, you know? I mean, uh, that's-- uh, just as, just as we, um, just as we are, um, the Earth provides us with everything we need, and that's how we treat her. You know, like, uh, um, so it's, it's the same thing. It's the same, it's the same sort of metaphor. I think, you know, uh, uh, w- I don't mean this politically, I do not mean this as an evangelical on the left, I don't mean anything like that. But that said, you know, all this non-binary stuff, all of this bi stuff, all of this fluid stuff, you know, it's emerging on the planet for a reason because there is a new consciousness that is saying, "You've given me two options, and they both don't work for me, and they both don't fit," you know?

"And I'm a little b-- and I'm something in between that." And something in between that is more like the divine. The divine isn't masculine or feminine, it's all. And, you know, and so anyone who is thinking of the, of the-- and I don't mean sexuality in terms of where you put your, uh, your private equipment. I, you know, I mean, just even in terms of like, um, you know, just in terms of like, um, um, access to, uh, different, uh, eh, emotional colors in one's palette, you know?

Uh, um, um, that that in and of itself, you know, that that is, um, that that is bringing one closer to the nature of the divine, toward the unit of consciousness that we talked about at the beginning of this conversation, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Because it exists, like you said, on a spectrum. I know in the, the Kudoshka trainings and the, the teachings that I've been a party to, it's all on a, it's all on a wheel, and it's the north, south, east, and west, and there's no, there's no right place to be on the wheel. It's y- you know, and, and it, it applies to your physics, physiology, it applies to your emotions, it applies to your orgasms, it applies to all of it

Jonathan Hammond

You know, there was this idea that, uh, y- at a certain point, Freud pulled back from his everything is sexual thing and said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." And, uh, and then he found out later that-- Then we found out later from Jung that he didn't really mean it. He didn't really mean it. That like, uh, you know, that, uh, that,

Matt Kosterman

everything was

Jonathan Hammond

yeah, that he was just adhering to some Victorian standards that, that, that made, made people uncomfortable. But, uh, a cigar is never just a cigar. So like, uh, you know, so just to, uh, kind of s- say that out loud, you know.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, yeah,

Jonathan Hammond

we're all, we're all, uh, we're all a, a bit of everything. And again, this isn't about, uh, this isn't even necessarily about alternative sexuality. It's about, um, access to all of us,

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm

Jonathan Hammond

know. Even, you know, in my, in my book, I, I have a whole chapter on, on sex and, um, and on sexuality and how these polarities exist in sex. But even something like transvestitism, you know, which is men, men putting on women's clothing because at first there's some erotic charge. But when they find out that the women's clothing actually allows them access to, uh, to, uh, aspects of themselves, to emotions or softness, that the women's clothing, uh, that without the women's clo-clothing they wouldn't allow themselves access to, you know.

Matt Kosterman

Fascinating

Jonathan Hammond

like it, it, it's, it's about that. It's about like, um, that there isn't, there isn't anything in us, um, that we should not have access to. Because, because what's wrong with, with, with what's going on sociolo- sociologically, politically, environmentally is the projection of the shadow. Which means that we all have stuff in us that we wish wasn't there but that is.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah

Jonathan Hammond

when we acknowledge it and integrate it and let it be there and a-accept it and, uh, then, then we're not acting it out, you know. But when there are aspects of us that, uh, um, particularly in men, that can't see the light of day because they go against the idea of what man is, you know, then those unconscious shadow aspects get projected out, you know.

Matt Kosterman

out.

Jonathan Hammond

And, and welcome to Washington DC right now in particular. But right.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah. Front and center. I mean, I, I had a, I had a, a, an incredible mushroom journey a couple of years ago, uh, where... And it was interesting how, you know, intention played such a big role, and I, I, I wanted, my intention was to have fun and explore. Very, I try to keep it very open. first I got these beautiful psychedelic, I never, I very seldom get visuals, and I get these beautiful visuals that turned out to be this whole cryptographic thing that I saw later. So that was wild. And then the energy shifted and, and to, to, you know, back to this, I identify as a cisgendered, you know, uh, uh, m- male who i- is attracted to females my whole life. And, um, and, and there, but there had been some little hints of, of, of bicuriosity that had popped up here and there. I forget if I had sat in an ISTA training. But anyway, all of the sudden, y- you couldn't have not convinced me that I wasn't gay during this journey. Like, this divine, this masculine energy and attraction came into my body.

And I mean, I even, like, I, I called my friend, I called my sister, I called my therapist, like, "Oh my God, this explains so much." You know, I'm in the throes of a, down from a psychedelic trip. And as I look back on it, you know, I woke up the next morning, I'm like, "Yeah, but I don't wanna date men." You know, like, but it was, it was just to be

Jonathan Hammond

I, I, it, sometimes this stuff is so on the nose that we don't even see it. You know, I, I had a, I had a, uh, a client, literally a CEO of a big company, you know, like three kids, a beautiful wife, bodacious wife, you know, like, uh, a, a fancy car, like, you know, all of that.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah,

Jonathan Hammond

And, uh, and he gets on the call with me and he, uh, he gets on the, in the session with me and he says, "I'm freaking out. Fr- I'm freaking out." Uh, and he said, "I was... We were on double date with this other couple and this guy who I'm just kind of fond of, like he's a good friend, you know, and we went to hug at the end," and he said, "And I felt his beard brush up against my face and I just wanted to stay there. What is going on?

What..." You know, and he's freaking out. And I said,

Matt Kosterman

いやいやいや。 啊。

Jonathan Hammond

yeah. Is that related?" "Yeah. You're yearning for the masculine. You're yearning for the soft masculine." You know, like, you know, of cour- you know, of course. You know? And even men being soft with each other, you know, it doesn't have to ve- veer into a- anything sexual and usually won't, but it is about like, um, you know... But it is, it is that yearning. It's just everything, everything gets so reductive, you know? The v- the, I mean, the, the further... The, the more reductive anything is, the further we get from the truth, you know?

Matt Kosterman

all, like you said, it's all, all the things. Yeah. And I, I've had those experience at, at retreats, you know, like, know, two men, no shirt on, you know, just, just embracing and just lay- and being in, in... And it's like, it's okay. I didn't, I didn't die. I didn't implode. Uh, and it, it, it really helps the body with safety. It helps the nervous system to calibrate and to... You know, I found later, actually, after all of that, I've, I, I realized prior to going to, uh... Are you familiar with the Mankind project? Have you heard of Mankind before? Worldwide, yeah. So just last summer I went to a Mankind retreat to check it out. It had been recommended to me.

And I realized going in that I had a fear of being in groups of men

Jonathan Hammond

Yes. Just to say this too, everything that we're talking about, about, um, the, the mental overlay onto all this j- uh, masculine, feminine, sexual polarity, sex, bi, all that,

Matt Kosterman

ん。

Jonathan Hammond

you know, that, that's all cultural. It's all largely religious. It's all meant to cut us off at the waist because a- because, because below the waist is where we feel our intuition. Be- below the waist is where we, where we al- allow ourselves pleasure. And if, if the idea is that we are to be enslaved, uh, the further we get from our pleasure, the more b- the better workers we become. You know? So like that is very much, um, that is very much there. And, you know, this, this new consciousness that we're, that we're, uh, just in the beginning, we're, we're just seeding right now.

And the reason why I say it's a return to, um, indigenous mind is that th- these, these polarities existed without a problem in a indigenous mind. You know, the, the, the two-spirited and, um,

Matt Kosterman

ん。

Jonathan Hammond

you know, masculine women, masculine men, feminine women. Like, th- there, there were labels and names for all these things that, you know, in, um, in indigenous cultures. It was even, it was even, um, you know, largely believed in, in many indigenous cultures that if a child was thought to be trans or b- non-binary or, or, um, or, or gay, you know, that they were put on the shamanic path. The idea being that because they are holding these polarities, um, and they're able to, and they- their nature allows them to, that they're more like the divine.

And so they become the consciousness holders for the community, which is what a shaman is,

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, I

Jonathan Hammond

know?

Matt Kosterman

that. I feel that

Jonathan Hammond

so it's, it's that too. So, so this was all, this was all allowed before it was about, it, it was about, um, uh, control, you know? And it was all about like, um, you know, and even, you know, even the idea of, of, um, you know, sex as, as, um, as a, a celebration of life,

Matt Kosterman

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hammond

a celebration of, of the, the sensual existence of living on earth, which is the earth-based, um, uh, uh, cultures, the earth-based traditions. That's, that's, you know, um, it- it's that, you know? So we-

Matt Kosterman

then, and the sexual energy is the ultimately it is the creative energy of the universe. It is what creates more beings

Jonathan Hammond

Well, you know, it's interesting that, that, um, uh, Jung was so smart. I mean, he, uh, you know, he talked about libido, libido as life force, you know? And we think of libido as a certain th- as, as that feeling you get when you get horny. But what he was talking about was, was libido being the directive force that brings that which is unconscious into the conscious so that we create. So if we create, if we can create life from the material between our legs, you know, that essentially the creation of all life, our life, our life direction, our life's journey, you know, that inner spark that guides us is, is that force. Yeah

Matt Kosterman

And we, and we tap that ener-, tap that energy in order to create in our life

Jonathan Hammond

That's right

Matt Kosterman

and to create life. That's one thing.

Jonathan Hammond

That's right

Matt Kosterman

but then what you said earlier about the programming of, uh, and the enslavement and the cutting ourselves off from the lower chakras, uh, is about cutting us off from that creativity and cutting us off from that, that beauty

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah, because it, it's, um, uh, you know, it's about, um, that the, the more, uh, the mo- you know, the more that you are, uh, the more that you defer pleasure in this lifetime for the sake of servitude and obedience with the promise of a nice afterlife is, uh, is the formula for a good little worker, for following that Protestant work ethic where work is now a religious, uh, uh, you know, a, a, a religious ideal, you know?

Like,

Matt Kosterman

Yeah.

Jonathan Hammond

Yes

Matt Kosterman

And I mean, in my, you know, my understanding from 15-plus years of this work is that the afterlife is gonna be just fine no matter what you do here.

Jonathan Hammond

Oh, a-absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, you know, and I, I would even go as far to say that like, like, um, you know, you can even think about it this way, that, you know, before there were, uh, spirit guides or ascended masters or, you know, um, there were the ancestors, you know? And the ancestors are-- were the people who lived well, who garnered wisdom, who were in service to life, and who got to the other side and continued to do that.

You know, that's why w- that's why they were called on, you know?

Matt Kosterman

ん

Jonathan Hammond

I, I, I, um, I did a Facebook post. I, I was like, "Dolly Parton's, uh, she's one of the ancestors." I would pray to Dolly. I would ac- you know, uh, you know, when, when I need help or guidance finding the positive polarity, you know, finding a, a, a sense of that I need courage to get beyond, uh, uh, some, uh, life circumstance that I've been saddled with, I would... Uh, she's a part of the ancestors. She's part of the pantheon. That's absolutely how I think of her. She's just doing her on the other side, you know?

Matt Kosterman

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What do you think of this... I, uh, uh, and I, I, I'm curious of your, any prescriptions, but I, I, uh, there's a, a sense, I've had this sense for a long time. There's not, when, when you're growing up and you're a teen- teenager moving into adulthood, especially for men, no in- there are no initiate- initiatory processes anymore. And how, how does the shamanic world deal with that? Is it the, the na- the, you know, the, the spirit world, whatever. What, what, what do you think is the a- is this true? And is there a, is there an answer? Is

Jonathan Hammond

It's really true. It, it's really true. It's really true. I, I think that, that, um, that, uh, uh, initiation and even, and even guidance and, you know, particularly, you know, let's go with, with men for a minute. It's, it's like, it's like, um, you know, if you think of the metaphor of the youth, you know, the youth is the rising sun who comes out of a darkness that he does not understand, who doesn't know what the day holds.

All he knows how to do is shine. He's great at shining, but he doesn't know, uh, but he doesn't know how to focus that shine. He doesn't know what the shine is for, you know, and he, he's very pleased with himself, you know.

Matt Kosterman

when to turn the shine down

Jonathan Hammond

There's no way to turn the shine down, you know. But ultimately, you know, that shine is for everything. That shine is for everything else other than him, you know. And, um, you know, and so, um, and, and, um, m- men, since we're talking about men, men who, um, recognize that they, that their purpose is the quality of their presence to grow the life force. That's what they are, you know. But men are supposed to say to their sons, "You have the power to grow the life force."

And they're supposed to say to their girls, "You are supposed to receive from the life force."

Matt Kosterman

んうん。

Jonathan Hammond

That's the father's job, you know. And like, um, uh, you know, and so, so I think like, like m- men need guidance and need understanding, uh, uh, that, that that is what they're supposed to do, particularly in a culture that says, uh, that says you're to take from life, not shine your presence and your light on it to grow it, but to take it, that you deserve it, that it's for you when you

Matt Kosterman

Whatever you

Jonathan Hammond

are

Matt Kosterman

take.

Jonathan Hammond

for everything else. Right.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah

Jonathan Hammond

And that, you know, and, and our young-- You know, it's very weird. In my, in my, uh, my private practice, I have, uh, four boys under the age of 17, which is first time... If you would ask me, "Do I see kids?" I would say no. But I have clients who said, "I want you to see my kids," you know, and I have four, and it turns out they're all boys. And like, and they just started this year. I am loving these kids. I'm loving, I'm loving working with them. Like, um, you know, and they are, um... And, and I can feel the sense of like that this stuff is, is in the face of what's being crammed down their throats as, as a sociological reality. You know? They're able to actually exist in it and go, "I see what that is, but, um, I'm doing it a little bit differently.

I'm, I'm cherry-picking a little bit. I'm not just drinking that Kool-Aid." You know? And, um, and, and it's really helping them. It's really helping them,

Matt Kosterman

the Kool-Aid being consensual real- consensus reality that we have

Jonathan Hammond

con- consensus all, you know, boy, yeah,

Matt Kosterman

Yeah.

Jonathan Hammond

girls, boys, girls,

Matt Kosterman

blah, blah.

Jonathan Hammond

all that. All that. All that. Yeah.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, I, I really am gonna put a plug in, you know, for, for the Mankind Project. I think you have to be 18, but, um, I came to it very late. I, it, it-- I'd done a lot of transformation. I thought-- I just found it... I, I was really-- It was more of an observer role, uh, in being there, and it's very well held, and, uh, p- saw a lot of great transformation, uh, happen in, in two days. Uh

Jonathan Hammond

I, uh, um, the reason why I started, I-i... Well, the reason why I started Men's Work, the reason why it became a dropdown on my website was because, um, that's what I was doing with my men. And, uh, and, and for whatever reason, I was just attracting so many men. Um, it, it just was so... A-and, and I was seeing, wow, they're really struggling.

Matt Kosterman

うん。

Jonathan Hammond

They're really struggling, you know? And, um, uh, and, and the, the, the models that they have to choose from are not cute, you know? Uh, and they're, they're not helpful, you know? And, um, uh, and so yeah, it's, it's just, it's just really important. It's just really, really, really important work. And also, um, that women need to know that... And we're talking to men and women, but this could be gay, straight, this is, you know, this is like, uh, you know, um, uh... But that, that those men are out there, and they do wanna, they, they do wanna become, um, uh, a, a different version than the, than the patriarchal, you know, male. You know? They're, they're out there.

Matt Kosterman

They're out there.

Jonathan Hammond

and yeah.

Matt Kosterman

Yeah, I literally used to m- the, the, the headquarters building for Mankind was on the route that, the road that my photo lab was on years ago, and I would drive past it on my way home, I would see it, and I would... You know, I was in therapy, and it was like, "Well, that looks interesting," but no. I mean, I, I remember. I can, like, I can picture it, and I don't even picture m- things much, and I was like, like, "Mankind Project. Hmm." There was a pull, uh, so I would just encourage anybody that if there's that pull to just step into it, uh, 'cause it only gets better. Yeah.

Jonathan Hammond

Important stuff. Really important stuff

Matt Kosterman

Well, Jonathan, thank you so much. What an incredible conversation. Um, so glad we got connected by Sarah, and, uh, I look forward to visiting you on, uh, on Maui one day

Jonathan Hammond

Yeah, anytime. I'll show you around. Well, you've been here, but I'll s- I'll, I'll show you the parts you probably don't know about

Matt Kosterman

I was sort of a solo tourist, so, uh, did a few of the things. But, uh, we will have all of, uh, all of Jonathan's contact information and links to the books. The, the one's coming out in March, you said. The, the second one. So this will be out before then for sure. uh, thanks for your time and your

Jonathan Hammond

It's so good to be here. So good to be here. Blessings to, to all your listeners

Matt Kosterman

Thank you, and we'll see you all or, or, or talk to you all next time